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How are you geting on with your Family Tree?


Big_Jeff_Leo
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My problem is that I can get the Vose family so far back but no further. I suspect there is a key ancestor a generation or two earlier from whom all the St Helens Voses descend. The earliest I have is Thomas Vose (1789-?) who married Elizabeth (surname unknown.) Thomas had brothers, Robert and William, but who their parents were I have not been able to discover.

I think I have literally dozens of distant cousins in and around St.Helens, but I'm not in touch with any of them.

Brian W.

 

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Hello Brian, 

There is a Thomas Vose 1789 - 1869 who Married Elizabeth Thrilwind (Born Windle 1785). 

They married at Parochial Chapel Rainford on - 23rd June 1816.

Had Children Mary, Thomas & Margaret.

Elizabeth Died and was buried in Rainford in 1861.

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This St. Helen's Forum has helped me so much over the years with locating records (especially at Lowe House) that I couldn't find over here in USA.  Still hoping to locate some Irish records one of these day --- don't know specifically where they were from, but was told it was Northern Ireland.  Matthew Crilley born around 1811.  Surprisingly to us, Crilley was a very common name in those areas of Ireland back in that time frame.   The marriage  (Jan 1, 1837) to his 1st wife, Catherine Mullins (d/o Luke Mullins) gave Matthew's father's name as Robert ( Cotton Weaver) .  Matthew was residing in Worsley Brow in Sutton and Catherine in Smithey Brow in Parr.    Never able to locate the death of Catherine, but by 1841 census, Matthew and 1 yr old Robert are without her.  Matthew a laborer in the Copper Works.

The 2nd marriage was to Mary McCarthy, never found that certificate either.  Their 1st child was Catherine, born in Dec 1844 in Swansea.   By 1851, they are in St. Helen's where William F. is born.

Thanks again for all the individuals who worked so diligently with me several years ago.

 

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Have you looked at the listings on here IRISH in ST.HELENS.If you havnt .I'm sure our experts and DAVE will point you to where it is and how to get it.

Smithy Brow was a massive area for Irish .It is also known as PARR ST.

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1 hour ago, vruffin said:

This St. Helen's Forum has helped me so much over the years with locating records (especially at Lowe House) that I couldn't find over here in USA.  Still hoping to locate some Irish records one of these day --- don't know specifically where they were from, but was told it was Northern Ireland.  Matthew Crilley born around 1811.  Surprisingly to us, Crilley was a very common name in those areas of Ireland back in that time frame.   The marriage  (Jan 1, 1837) to his 1st wife, Catherine Mullins (d/o Luke Mullins) gave Matthew's father's name as Robert ( Cotton Weaver) .  Matthew was residing in Worsley Brow in Sutton and Catherine in Smithey Brow in Parr.    Never able to locate the death of Catherine, but by 1841 census, Matthew and 1 yr old Robert are without her.  Matthew a laborer in the Copper Works.

The 2nd marriage was to Mary McCarthy, never found that certificate either.  Their 1st child was Catherine, born in Dec 1844 in Swansea.   By 1851, they are in St. Helen's where William F. is born.

Thanks again for all the individuals who worked so diligently with me several years ago.

 

Hi was Catherine's maiden name Mullins? She may have died in 1841? Did Mathew die in 1881?

 

Edited by Big_Jeff_Leo
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We're guessing Catherine Mullins Crilley (wife of Matthew) probably died some time before June 6 1841 (date on Census)   I never found a death for Mathew.  I estimate 1881, because he's not with his son, Robert.  Robert had 2 marriages,   St. Anne's Oct 27, 1867 Prescot;   Holy Cross Apr 17, 1880 and he's listed on both those records and it doesn't indicate 'deceased'.

added 2 minutes later

Irish section in St. Helen's.  Don't think I know how to get there, but will try to find it.  Thanks for taking the time to respond to me.

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I have found the marriage of Oct 27 1867 - looks like they recorded his name as "Crilly". on the St.Anne's Church Records. Robert being listed as in residence at Clarence Street, Peasley Cross.

The same "error" may be made on a listing from St.Anne's Church burial records - Maria Crilly was buried on the 4th Jan 1866 (Died on the 1st Jan 1866). Aged 47 Years old and being listed as of "Peasley Cross". 

Now on the Baptism records there is a  Maria Crilley born 9th May 1860 and Baptised 12 of May 1860. Parents listed as Mathew and Maria and in residence at Peasley Cross.

 

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I have been doing my tree for about 12 years now. One of the biggest problems is my Irish ancestors, Kelly being a very common name and the sons are usually Timothy or James. Daly and Donlan spelt loads of different ways. Two of my gt gt grandfathers simply disappeared but one of them on various censuses and marriage certs was alternatively dead and alive for about ten years or so. Third gt gt grandfather was adopted which no one in the family knew about until I found his name in 1871 census and listed as adopted child but by 1881 he was just named with the family surname not his birth one. Throw into this my mother's family making up a story about where their grandmother came from which was totally untrue but this lie was kept up for about 100 years until I found records.

The best bits, when new records are found which help put things together and making online friends to work with, I met my mum's second cousin online and between us have managed to work out quite a lot!

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Going through one of the usual 'suspension' periods while waiting for another breakthrough. That might change if I get around to doing the Ancestry DNA thing (in addition to the Y-DNA results I already have). It's been about 17/18 years since I got into looking at it (one of the reasons for starting this site in 2001) and interest fluctuates. Occasional exhilaration between bouts of frustration. :)

There was a time I allowed myself to be led up the garden path by another researcher. I'd already dismissed a particular 'lead', forgotten all about it, then their interesting information seemed to fit for one particular line. Quite a few people had been duped and were excited, then about a year later that researcher discovered the census record (the one I'd forgotten about) which indicated that this particular character had never married or had children. We were still related to the line that goes back about a thousand years - and to the 'interesting' people, but not directly, as had been thought. It was like an irritating humiliation that taught a good lesson to be more careful.

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I get the whole Irish thing,..my fathers paternal line is Irish and of course records usually hit a dead end not that far back (1816) in my case.

On the other hand my mothers maiden name is an old Lancastrian name that I have been able to go way back with .. mainly due to the Lancashire Parish Council records.

Sometimes it really is the luck of the draw!.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I'm relatively new to family history but I've made some interesting (to me, at least) discoveries.  I managed to push my part of my Haselden line back to around 1725 and almost all were born, lived and died within about 8 miles of where I grew up in Parr! 

There's a close association with the Sankey Canal in my family, with at least 5 members being lock keepers at various times.  Locations include Newton-le-Willows, Widnes Docks and the New Double Locks in Parr.  My Great(x3) Grandfather, William Haselden, was the lock keeper at the latter location for many years.  He must have known my Great-Great Grandfather James Gamble, who owned a flat and was a boatman living in Sankey Place at the same time William Haselden was the lock keeper at New Double Locks.  James Gamble must have taken his flat through those locks many times as he moved goods out of St.Helens.  Ironic that that James' Grandaughter and William's Great Grandson would marry 70 years after William and James were working the canal.  There's a sad aspect to this Sankey Canal association.  William drowned in the canal, as did his father and one of his Grandsons, also named William..spookily, the 2 Williams drowned in the same place, near Merton Bank Road and Island's Brow.

Another William Haselden, my Great Uncle, had an "interesting" reputation.  We call him "William the Bad".  He joined the 1st Bn, South Lancs Regt in 1888 and was posted to Portsmouth to help man the forts defending the south coast.  In 1892 he was locked up for 30 days for assaulting a police officer.  According to a contemporary newspaper article, he and his mates were coming back from a night on the town when a police officer told them to move along.  They duly took off their belts and gave him a beating.  Shortly after his release, he was posted to the 2nd Bn (I'm sure the 1st Bn just wanted rid of him) resulting in him going to Gibraltar then Malta and finally Egypt.  While in Cairo, he was diagnosed with Type 1 Diabetes and was sent home to a military hospital in Southampton.  He was discharged in 1894 on medical grounds.  His paperwork included a section where his commanding officer could provide comments on his character and general habits.  William's CO wrote just 3 words, "Irregular.  Intemperate.  Bad."  William died in the Whiston Union Workhouse a year later due to his medical condition.  

My military heritage outside the Haselden line is a little more auspicious.  George Gamble and his brother James lived in South John Street, Parr.  Prior to WW1 they had labourer jobs typical of my family, George in Greenall's brewery and James in the mines.  George was enlisted in the Rifle Brigade right after war broke out and military life clearly suited him, progressing through promotions to the rank of Sgt.  He was commissioned in 1917 to the rank of 2nd Lt and was sent back to his unit in France in August of that year.  Barely a month later, he was in the trenches when he heard German soldiers trying to cut the barbed wire.  According to one report, he went to warn another officer of the impending threat (perhaps the Germans were more immediately in front of this other officer's position) but the Germans threw "bombs" (presumably hand grenades) which killed the other officer immediately and mortally wounded George.  

George's brother, James, joined the Royal Flying Corps in 1915 as an Air Mechanic.  He, too, was promoted to Sergeant and then, in November 1917, was accepted for pilot training.  I wonder if the death of his brother, George, that September, prompted James to take a more active role in the war.  Upon completion of training, he was posted to 11 Squadron in France flying Bristol F2b Fighter aircraft.  On one occasion, his engine failed and he had to force-land on a trench which broke the aircraft's fuselage in two.  He and his observer where unharmed.  At the end of the War, James stayed in the RAF serving with 11 Sqn as part of the occupation forces in Germany.  He returned home in July 1919 and was ultimately discharged from the Service in 1923.

Edited by Mark Haselden
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  • 4 weeks later...
On 30/11/2017 at 00:29, Big_Jeff_Leo said:

Have you found anything interesting?, Someone famous? A murder perhaps?  

I found a suicide last night (along with quite a few other additions). Others I've mentioned previously, like the Crowley acolyte freemason heroin addict, another one who was transported to Australia for nicking a horse, plus the famous sheep-breeder (and the living ex-BBC TV newsreader). They're always siblings of ancestors and never anyone direct. The slaver cannibal one was disappointingly disproved (mentioned Nov 20) - although still somehow a relative.

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Since I discovered I had 47% Irish ancestry through my dNA test I've become a bit bored with that side and have decided to concentrate on my other lot who are black, African/Americans, originating in Nigeria and thereabouts, today all in the US. I discovered a brother of my Dads' had a famous restaurant in Beale St, in Memphis TN! (I know I'm a bit flaky but it impressed me loads)!  My family live mainly in MS, TN, SC AL and NC with a smattering in other places. There's preachers, teachers and civil rights activists among them and  probably a few criminals, but nothing world shattering so far. I watched a documentary on Netflix the other night called 13th about the supposed effects of the 13th amendment on the black prison population statistics in the US. Fascinating stuff which is now taking me off an a whole new learning reading tangent thanks to my Ancestry dNA journey.

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I'll probably do the Ancestry DNA. Two cousins of various distance who didn't know of each other got in touch last night after finding they had matches - solidifying things back to our St Helens Mercers. Things like that can get you going again and burning the midnight oil. It helps you to resume the searches and become unstuck. I'm collecting things from newspapers at the moment and besides the suicide clipping I found a report of a marriage of my great grandmother's brother's wedding, which seemed interesting.

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Fascinating reading about the wedding guests, proper toffs you got there, that's a great reason to search further :) 

I'd really recommend Ancestry dNA, it's fascinating unlocking the doors to the past. I've got almost 200 3rd to 4th cousins listed and because I can easily split them into Mums and Dads line I can identify those I'm most interested in.

I'm also getting new matches every day since the Black Friday sale and because people gave the kits as Christmas presents they've increased the number of members in the gene pool exponentially. Over one and a half millions kits were sold in the US over the Black Friday weekend sale in Novermber. Just checked todays listing and I've got 16 new matches

added 5 minutes later

Meant to add this link DNA Detectives https://www.facebook.com/groups/DNADetectives/?fref=nf

This is just one of a number of sites which help one work through the dNA results I've found it invaluable

Edited by kizzy
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29 minutes ago, kizzy said:

Fascinating reading about the wedding guests, proper toffs you got there, that's a great reason to search further

Yeah, I expanded back on that line last night. They had pubs in London - Hammersmith and Kensington, but they originally came from Thanet.

DSC_0828.jpg?raw=1

DMC-with-cousin-emme.jpg?raw=1

I don't know what this occasion was, but great grandmother Daisy Mabel Carthew (on the right) with her cousin. OTT clothes, or what?

 

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On ‎11‎/‎30‎/‎2017 at 17:52, Tony J said:

recently loads of people are doing Ancestry DNA to work out ethnicity and do not put trees on.

That's true but if you come across someone like this and check out their name on Ancestry (or  other sites) it's possible that they do have a tree but simply haven't linked it to their dNA profile. You can search for their tree if you have an ordinary ancestry account

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Kizzy, i am a member on Ancestry so can see the unlinked trees but an awful lot seem to have nothing at all and the only relatives that have taken tests are two of my mum's second cousins so can only identify relatives from one set of gt gt grandparents easily.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I started looking at the family of a brother of my g g grandfather William Whitmore over a decade ago. They lived in Stotfold, Befordshire. His name was Joseph Element Whitmore (1820-1905). An unusual middle name, but he had a great uncle with the same name and it was sort of explained in a letter that he'd written to an American genealogist, where he said that one of the ancestors had eloped with the daughter of a London banker with 'Element' in his name. I've never found anything to substantiate that, but this Joseph gave his first son (born 1846) the same name.  I could track him at Stotfold and up to 1871 at some army barracks in Burnley but then the trail went dead and I left it at that for a long time. 

As mentioned, he was the first son born in 1846 but then his mother died two years later, aged 26 in 1848. Joseph senior married again in 1849 and four more children were born. Then tragically his second wife also died in 1854, aged 27. So there must've been a bit of turmoil and it was probably no wonder that Joseph junior decided to sign up for the army.

Then last night I stumbled on his army records. That was interesting in a few ways because whenever I've looked at records for the world wars it was all for the King, but of course this was for the Queen (Victoria) and I wasn't expecting much detail. I'd thought that such administration had only come about due to the significance and the scale of those wars, but I was wrong. The records weren't much different from those that came later. Anyway, amongst those papers was mention of Joseph's wedding to a Grace Elizabeth Hulme in 1882 (and to remove his father as next of kin). The  first reaction was to scan everywhere to find her in England, but nothing came of that so I looked more closely at the details of the wedding and found that it'd been at St Thomas Mount, Madras (India). Then I found that she'd been born there, obviously to English parents serving over there.

He'd signed up for 12 years. In 1871 he'd been listed as a 'Driver', but in these records his civilian occupation was that of a 'harness maker' (like his dad) and now he was a 'Sergeant Collar Maker'. Before any motor transport, looking after all of the kit for the horses must've been quite important. It was a good service record, no punishments and conduct exemplary, he was discharged in February 1892. So did he come home? No, he died and was buried at Sewree, Bombay, India in 1897, aged 51. Now I wonder what happened in those last five years and did he and Grace Elizabeth have any kids?


It doesn't look as though they had any kids.

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