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Chris

William Livesey Death

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Apologies - I haven't been on the site for quite a while and it has changed tremendously.  If this is in the wrong place can someone please let me know where it should go?

I have the following information for my 4 x great grandfather:

William Livesey (baptised 1806 at Ormskirk Parish Church) married Ellen Charnley (baptised 1807 at Balderstone, Blackburn). They married at Blackburn Parish Church in 1831. They have 7 children I know about; I can only find baptisms for 6 of the children 2 at Ormskirk Wesleyan Church in 1834 and 1836, the other 4 at St. Helens Wesleyan in 1839, 1841, 1843 and 1846.

In the 1841 census the family are shown as living at Ashtons Green, Parr. Ellen Livesey died in 1848 and I have obtained her death certificate which gives her address at death as Parr Stocks. In the 1851 census the family are shown living at Parr Flat, Parr and William is a widower, and in both census his occupation is given as a Wheelwright.  

Their daughter Jane Livesey married William Morris in 1859 and she gave her father's name as William Livesey and his occupation as deceased! Jane married at St Thomas Church, Ashton-in-Makerfield and gave her address as Blackbrook, Parr. She died in 1866 and is buried at St Peters Church, Parr.

I am trying to trace William Livesey's death (from the information above sometime between 1851 and 1859) but when checking BMD can find none in Prescot or St. Helens. I have been unable to find Ellen Livesey's burial (1848) or William Livesey's burial (1851-1859), William's burial would help me to pinpoint his death certificate on BMD (although it is difficult because the name often has a different spelling depending on where you are looking!)

I believe St. Helens Wesleyan Church had a graveyard but do not know when it closed. Does anyone know how I can access the burial records for this church or any ideas of where William and Ellen could be buried? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks

Chris

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Hi,

 

Possibility for death of Ellen. Ellen Livesy  Q1 1848 Prescot. Vol 20 page 828

 

 

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Thanks John but I already have a death certificate for Ellen, it is really her burial I am hoping to find, and the death certificate and burial for William.

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Hi Chris,

If there are any records they will probably be at the St Helens Library but  it is closed due to major structural problems

https://www.sthelens.gov.uk/libraries/local-history-and-archives/

There may be other copies at Preston Records office. There were a few Wesleyan Churches but the only one that had a graveyard and built at the time you are looking for is the Tontine St one, see Genuki

http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LAN/StHelens

There is a pic of the Tontine St church here taken about 1900 but the mid 1800's was when the town centre churchyards tended to stop being used.

http://calmview.sthelens.gov.uk/CalmView/Record.aspx?src=CalmView.Catalog&id=PH%2f17%2f7%2f22&pos=1

One thing that puzzles me is why a marriage in Ashton but then by 1861 census Jane and William are in Parr with two children, both born in Parr and Jane's 15 year old sister Margaret. Is it possible that William and Ellen are both buried at Parr St Peter's too and the transcriptions missing? Another thing is the youngest daughter was born Sutton not Parr so Ellen could have died in Sutton.

Sorry can't be of much help!

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Hi Tony

Thank you for the reply, it has certainly helped in a number of ways, not least because it is nice to have someone's unbiased input.

I didn't realise the Library was closed so that means I don't need to try to arrange a visit there. I got the registrations for the baptisms at the Wesleyan Church from Preston Record Office but unfortunately they only had the baptisms so I wasn't sure if any burial registers existed.  Not sure which Wesleyan Church it was as it simply said St Helens Wesleyan Church, I may have to make a return visit to see if I can find anymore information about the Church.

Not sure why Jane Livesey and William Morris married at Ashton-in-Makerfield, their address at marriage was Blackbrook so I assume this was the Church nearest to them that could perform marriages but can't be sure, however Jane lived with her parents in Parr in 1841 and 1851 census and William Morris (her husband) lived in Windle with his parents in both census. Jane was buried at Parr, St Peters in 1866 so this church is a possibility however according to information on the net the church was founded before 1839 but burnt down in 1860 so I assume the registers for those years are missing? Not sure if there may be bishops transcripts and if there are where they are located.

Jane was born at Parr Stocks, Parr in 1841, although Jane's younger sister Margaret was born in Worsley Brow, Sutton in 1846. According to Ellen's death certificate she died at Parr Stocks, Parr, All very confusing. I think it may be worth checking the Sutton registers if I can but I don't hold out much hope because I think you are correct that the church is Parr St Peters and the records are missing.

Thanks once again for your help

 

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Chris,it is more than likely it was the Wesleyan church that was where Wesley House St.helens C ouncil.I dont know where you live so apologise if i tell you what you may alreafy know.The church i am referring to was a massive edifice that stood in Corporation st opp the Gamble institute.It was safly demolished some years ago msinly because it wad a fire risk.Most of the wood used was PITCH PINE.I'm sure there are fotos around.Check fotos on this site. 

Amazingly there is a small church built into Wesley House on one corner!By the way i read a bible passage when i was a cub there from its pulpit!

Hope this is the right church?

added 3 minutes later

Just go on church list and younwill see 2 fotos of this beautiful church. 

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The GRO has a death registered for William LIVELY 1850 Prescot Vol20 Page 588 giving the age at death as 4 but in my experience the age  can't be trusted on that site 

added 25 minutes later

I checked the MI's for St Peters and you're right there are no burials listed for 1858 or 1860 and just one in 1858

Of course just because he's not on there doesn't mean he isn't buried there just that his name is not on a stone, you would need to check the grave books perhaps, if there are any

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Chris,noting comments from RATTY.She helped me a lot as did others when doing our family tree.With comments like CHECK THE SPELLING!We had Pickavance  in our tree and the number of variations we checked many!St Peters church is still there as is the graveyard.We  have family married etc there.We know it as PARR ST PETERS IT IS AN RC CHURCH!.Also we used the Council cemetry grave record to identify other people buried in the same grave.This we then used to trace and reaffirm as well. So you need to be open minded when checking records.

We had a Methodist side of the family marry a Roman Catholic at Parr St Peters.

Edited by non sibi sed omnibus (see edit history)
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11 hours ago, RATTY said:

just because he's not on there doesn't mean he isn't buried there just that his name is not on a stone, you would need to check the grave books perhaps, if there are any

Thats what I said earlier Ratty, Lancs OPC has burial records from 1861 so the MI you have from 1858 might be the only type of information available

Non, Parr St Peters is C of E and

Ratty, I dont think the church records and GRO would have both been wrong so think this is another person

Burial: 17 May 1850 St Mary (now St Helen), St Helens, Lancashire, England
William Lively - 
    Age: 4 years
    Abode: Windle
    Buried by: George Bagot
    Register: Burials 1846 - 1850 from the Bishop's Transcripts, Entry 537
    Source: LDS Film 1469036

added 5 minutes later

Another thought re William's death, my gt grandparents wedding cert in 1900 says his father was dead, but he was not, had just run off so in 1901 census my gt gt grandmother was still down as married, in fact the old man had more resurrections than Lazarus alternating between alive an dead on wedding certs and censuses and we still don't know exactly where and when  he died.

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On 2017-6-18 at 4:45 AM, RATTY said:

The GRO has a death registered for William LIVELY 1850 Prescot Vol20 Page 588 giving the age at death as 4 but in my experience the age  can't be trusted on that site 

added 25 minutes later

I checked the MI's for St Peters and you're right there are no burials listed for 1858 or 1860 and just one in 1858

Of course just because he's not on there doesn't mean he isn't buried there just that his name is not on a stone, you would need to check the grave books perhaps, if there are any

Hi thanks really thought you'd found it and his surname had been spelt as Lively, however this is not the right one because William was alive in the 1851 census. He would have died between 1851 and 1859. Really frustrating because although the church records might have been destroyed his death must have been registered, just need to find it!

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I wouldn't be so sure about it being registered, I've been looking for one for ages who's birth doesn't seem to have been registered, I know the exact birth date too.

(One of those 1858s above should be 1859 sorry)

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