Paul_Rollins Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 I am a US historian/writer referred to the Prescot Connect Forum by member Geoff Berry. I am currently writing a biography of Prescot native, WILLIAM ALLEN (1821-1886), son of Joseph Allen (5 Nov 1787, Tottington - 17 July 1845) and Ann Irving Allen (6 Nov c1798- 5 May 1860). Joseph Allen is reportedly buried in Gateacre; Ann's burial site is thus far undocumented. Joseph and Ann married in Ormskirk in 1818. Afterwards, they settled in Prescot where they had 5 children, all christened at Atherton Street Presbyterian Church. The birth/death dates of their children are as follows: James (2 Feb 1819 - 20 Mar 1852); Ann (2 Feb 1819 - 25 June 1860); WILLIAM (28 Dec 1821 - 21 July 1886, San Gabriel, CA); John Irving (26 Mar 1824 - 1 Feb 1862) and Phoebe (17 Jan 1827 - 18 Oct 1910). I have not found the Allens in the 1841 Census although I suspect there was no compelling reason for them to leave the Liverpool/Lancashire area. Mr. Berry has found a Joseph Allen listed in Church Street in the 1834 Pigot Directory under the section "Nobility, Clergy and Gentlemen." This makes sense. Joseph Allen, the son of a Pilkington textile manufacturer, was a man of means. Any facts about the Allens are most welcome. However, the following is desired: - What was Joseph Allen's occupation? Was he, like his father and son William, involved in the textile trade? - If "my" Allens did live on Church Street, can I determine their exact address, allowing a possible match with photos in Stephen Nulty's Street in Time? - William Allen, the subject of my book, apprenticed with a Liverpool cotton merchant in a large firm from abt. 1836 - 1841. Is it possible to find out with whom/what firm he apprenticed? - William, age 19, left for Alexandria, Egypt in 1841 where he lived for 23 years. During that time, he imported cotton goods to Egypt and exported raw cotton to Liverpool and the Lancashire manufacturers. Do any records exist that may have recorded any of those transactions? - What trade ships sailed out of Liverpool to Alexandria in the early 1840s? At 19, he must have hitched a ride on one of these. These are tough, maybe impossible questions to answer. If you have any ideas where to look, please refer me to alternate sources. Contributors will be given a book and duly credited in the acknowledgements section of the completed work. If anyone can turn up anything, please be specific in citing all reference information. Thank you very much, Paul Rollins 23 Downshire Circle Decatur, GA 3033 USA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RATTY Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 Welcome Paul Had a quick look through this and you are correct some of these questions can't be answered here, not a lot of records before census and BMDs Ill have a better look tomorrow for other trade directories but the family were not in Church Street or Atherton Street in 1841 that's almost sure going by this site http://www.prescot.org/?q=allen&root=2&t=-1&page_id=1301&sort=1&ex=1&sex=0 and Ancestry. Church Street was not very big though There is an Allen family in Atherton Street,William and sons William and James but wife is Margaret and he is a potter so not yours. Joseph and Ann are listed on the site but no further detail Ill keep on looking for them tomorrow There were hundreds of trading ships in and out of Liverpool at that time so that will probably be impossible to find,Liverpool was built on the cotton, sugar and salt trades, then coal. Before that it was the famous Privateers (the real pirates of the Caribbean) https://archive.org/details/historyofliverpo00willuoft There may be records at Liverpool Archives of ships and crew lists but it would need a proper full time researcher to find what you need, I wouldn't know the first thing about it. I can also only search on the Ancestry site for apprentice records for Liverpool but will have a look around to see what else there is. If you are on Ancestry you must have the original baptism records for all the children, if not let me know,also does the following belong to you or is it useful? http://www.queenslandfamilytrees.com/getperson.php?personID=I297&tree=9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen nulty Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 Hello Paul, and welcome to the forum. Some interesting questions are posed there. I'll take some time to look through my records and see if I can fill in any blanks, though the period slightly pre-dates my areas of real interest and knowledge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phyll Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 Hi Paul, to Connect. I am also in the US, in NJ, but originally from St. Helens. I found this, don't know if you already have this info, hope it helps. "William Allen, cotton merchant, and Emily Jane Bell, daughter of Thomas Bell (a partner in the firm of Peel and Company, merchants of cotton and wheat, in Alexandria, Egypt) and Hester Louisa Bell, were married on August 8, 1859, first at the British Consulate, Alexandria, and afterwards on the same day at the English Chapel, Alexandria, by the Rev. Edmund Winder. The Banns of Marriage for William Allen and Emily Bell were called on July 24, July 31, and August 7. (Only the one page of the Banns of that period survives; it is the page that includes William and Emily.) The witnesses to the marriage were Thomas Bell, M.A. Thurburn, A.C. Harris, and Selima Harris. William died July 21, 1886 in San Gabriel and is buried there. Emily died May 26, 1911 in Lamanda Park and is buried in San Gabriel." "William was an apprentice to a cotton merchant in Liverpool, and when he was free, he went to Alexandria, Egypt in 1841 as an individual cotton merchant. After his marriage to Emily Bell they honeymooned in England. William and Emily?s first three children were born in Alexandria, and they decided that the boys would be raised Unitarian and the girls as Anglican. They returned to Bath in 1864 when William retired, living first in Bath Hampton, near Bath, before buying The Cloisters in Bath. William is listed as a member of the Liverpool Cotton Brokers? Association in 1870. The doctor told William to leave England for health reasons and go to either southern France or Southern California. The family first lived in Biarritz, France but did not care for it. William came to Southern California in 1878 where he took an option on and later purchased the land that would become The Sphinx ranch in Lamanda Park, San Gabriel (now Altadena). He returned a year later with his wife and five of their children, the three older boys remaining in England until their education was complete. In 1879 there was no Southern Pacific railroad, and the Santa Fe had not yet opened. They had to travel through Sacramento." More on the links. http://www.queenslandfamilytrees.com/getperson.php?personID=I297&tree=9 http://forums.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=7905952 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phyll Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 Just found this, unfortunately it still doesn't state his occupation. Joseph Allen England and Wales Census, 1841 Name Joseph Allen Event Type Census Event Date 1841 Event Place Childwall, Lancashire, England Residence Note Holt Farm Gender Male Age 53-57 Age (Original) 53 Occupation Null Birth Year (Estimated) 1784-1788 Birthplace Lancashire Registration District Prescot Book Number 11 Parish Childwall County Lancashire Page Number 14 Registration Number HO107 Piece/Folio 511/23 Affiliate Record Type Institution Household Joseph Allen Gender M Age NULL Birthplace Lancashire Anne Allen Gender F Age NULL Birthplace Lancashire James Allen Gender M Age NULL Birthplace Lancashire Anne Allen Gender F Age NULL Birthplace Lancashire John Allen Gender M Age NULL Birthplace Lancashire Phoebe Allen Gender F Age NULL Birthplace Lancashire Ellen Lyon Gender F Age NULL Birthplace Lancashire George Southeran Gender M Age NULL Birthplace Lancashire https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQG4-D44 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RATTY Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 Some reading links around ships based Liverpool to be going on with Paul http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/crew-lists-agreements-log-books-merchant-ships-after-1861/ http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/maritime/archive/links.aspx http://www.crewlist.org.uk/data/vesselsport.php http://www.ancestry.co.uk/wiki/index.php?title=World_Archives_Project:_Liverpool,_United_Kingdom,_Crew_Lists_1860-1919 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RATTY Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 This looks promising Forget that, I found them 1841 Little Woolton / Much Woolton township in the parish of Childwall, District is still Prescot but its Liverpool Joseph Allen 53 of Independent means Ann Allen 56 James Allen 20 Anne 20 John 16 Phoebe 14 Ellen Lyon 30 ?servant female George Southern? 14 ? servant male ( sorry it's unclear) Doesn't help much but he's rich enough not to have to work already anyway There is no actual house name or number but it comes after Yew Tree Farm and Grange Farm then I think its Holt Farm, in that tiangle somewhere. Its quite near Gateacre Brow and Childwall Parish Church. Four ish miles from Prescot. Little Woolton is now referred to as Gateacre and Much Woolton is just plain Woolton. I can copy out the route description from the front page of the census if you want it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul_Rollins Posted May 12, 2016 Author Share Posted May 12, 2016 Thanks so very much Ratty, Stephen and Phyll. All of you are just great to help out this retired Yank! I also found the 1841 Census information last night. I am a member of both Ancestry and Family Search, and somehow the census data escaped me. * What cemetery(ies) in Gateacre would the Allens (Unitarian/Presbyterian) most likely be buried in? * Also, Stephen, your Street in Time booklet left me salivating. If we could only somehow link the Allens to an address, maybe there would be a photo match. I know this is asking too much, but you know, you gotta set your goals high! * If Joseph's son William (the subject of my book) apprenticed in Liverpool about 1836-1841, what type of formal schooling do you think he might have had before the age of 14? * I have checked out the Lancashire wills on microfilm at the LDS center in Salt Lake. I found Joseph's father's will, which dates from 1809. However, their files contain no notice of Joseph's 1845 will, which could indicate his profession and how much of a man of means he was). Where would you go to look if you were me? Are there any national records that are catalogued elsewhere? Thanks again. I hope to hear from you about any further detail you can glean or any other places you recommend I look. Much appreciated! Sincerely, Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RATTY Posted May 12, 2016 Share Posted May 12, 2016 Class: HO107; Piece: 511; Book: 11; Civil Parish: Childwall; County: Lancashire; Enumeration District: 6; Folio: 23; Page: 14; Line: 6; GSU roll: 306899 Source Information Ancestry.com. 1841 England Census [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations, Inc, 2010. That's that source for the 1841 which you already have I just noticed Do you have the info for John Irving? He died at Ashton Street, you know about that address do you? Do you also have his will? Cant find a burial for him nor for his mother except an odd one at Christchurch Hunter Street, the address is Wenfrwdd Glen? never come across that before, maybe it was a house name but there is no age noted. I wouldn't put my money on it though seems to me its the wrong religion and if they stuck by that it will take a little more digging to find those records Do you have the info for John Irving? He died at Ashton Street, you know about that address do you? Do you also have his will? Cant find a burial for him nor for his mother except an odd one at Christchurch Hunter Street, the address is Wenfrwdd Glen? never come across that before, maybe it was a house name but there is no age noted. I wouldn't put my money on it though seems to me its the wrong religion and if they stuck by that it will take a little more digging to find those records I also came across this at the Liverpool record office archive it sounds like it may be the above John Irving Allen http://archive.liverpool.gov.uk/CalmView/Record.aspx?src=CalmView.Catalog&pos=1 Okay more on Liverpool cotton trade, get yourself a flask and a comfy chair enjoy http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/maritime/exhibitions/cotton/traders/liverpool.aspx http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/rd/d14ab124-8e9c-4998-8843-b17fedc28e6e https://archive.org/stream/cu31924030128239/cu31924030128239_djvu.txt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen nulty Posted May 12, 2016 Share Posted May 12, 2016 * Also, Stephen, your Street in Time booklet left me salivating. If we could only somehow link the Allens to an address, maybe there would be a photo match. I know this is asking too much, but you know, you gotta set your goals high! No luck so far, Paul, but I have long ago learned that this type of research is a long game, and can't always be resolved by Google I have lots of physical records to plough through so will continue to look and report back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
halj Posted May 12, 2016 Share Posted May 12, 2016 Ratty, you have excelled yourself with the amount of info. you have found, well done am proud of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul_Rollins Posted May 12, 2016 Author Share Posted May 12, 2016 Dear Ratty, Your super sleuthing is much appreciated! I forgot to mention that I did have the Queensland info you were so kind to send along. The curator of that site put me in touch with the great granddaughter of William Allen who now lives in northern California. She has helped a lot thus far, and has a number of family photos, including a silhouette of our Joseph Allen! I am ignorant (literally) of any information on John Irving Allen. I have never heard of Ashton Street, his will or the portrait of him in the Liverpool Records Office. Nor can I access the portrait of John through the Liverpool catalogue. Will I need to contact them directly to have them copy his page? If you have a moment, please send me directions on how/where I can find this data on my own. I have done American genealogies in the past, but this is my first attempt at UK research and certainly nothing that goes this far back. Stephen, thanks to you also for your continued diligence on my behalf. Thanks again, everyone and have a great weekend. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvy20 Posted May 12, 2016 Share Posted May 12, 2016 The baptism for John Irving Allen is on Find my past born 26 Mar 1824 baptized 16 May 1824 Presbyterian Church Prescot. Again from FMP John Irving Allen was resident in Alexandria when he died in 1862 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul_Rollins Posted May 12, 2016 Author Share Posted May 12, 2016 Thanks, John! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RATTY Posted May 12, 2016 Share Posted May 12, 2016 Thanks for the compliments everyone, its nice to be appreciated now and then Paul I collected a lot of stuff from Anc* and will gather it together eventually in a dropbox file for you, it includes the above certificate and others. I will PM you with the link and also an explanation re Ashton Street. He left all his money to his sister Phoebe who did live in Egypt and perhaps the death was registered there or he died while visiting home for his mothers funeral but he definitely died at Ashton Street, Liverpool I'll also look in to the image file on John Irving for you as soon as I get the chance. Sorry to hold you in suspense but I'm full of a head cold today and can hardly see straight to read I know the frustration of trying to research abroad when you have no way of physical access to search yourself so I'll help if I can. I'm not an expert though I must tell you and although Liverpool is not far away I am not very knowledgeable about their record office or archives, I know where to look for help though. Back soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul_Rollins Posted May 13, 2016 Author Share Posted May 13, 2016 Much obliged, Ratty. Know that you most definitely are appreciated. Paul I am finally making my way through some records that most of you are already familiar with: Re: Joseph Allen on Church Street Repository: Lancashire Archives Reference Number: DDCS/acc11870/Box4/24 Title: Records of Prescot Town and Parish Date: 20 Sep 1837 Description: Notice of sale of house and garden belonging to Joseph Allen in Church Street, Prescot and the plumber's shop adjacent.: printed by AT Ducker, Market Place, Prescot. I am hoping that by contacting the Archives, I can retrieve a copy of this transaction. Maybe it will contain other useful information (e.g., occupation, how long the Allens occupied the property, etc.). Then again, this could be in vain. This Joseph Allen may not be my Joseph at all. Thanks to one and all, Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeoffB Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 Paul has led us on a merry dance - I look forward to his book - Prescot boy to Egypt, Bath and California should be interesting reading :-) The 1928 and 1934 trade directories show Cotton Manufacturers http://www.prescot.org/?page_id=1053&root=6&g=334 John and Richard Allen, Hillock Street Something I had completely missed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phyll Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 * What cemetery(ies) in Gateacre would the Allens (Unitarian/Presbyterian) most likely be buried in? Have you tried contacting these Paul? http://www.ukunitarians.org.uk/gateacre/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen nulty Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 Paul The records you refer to above are in the collection of Henry Cross, Solicitor, and form part of a fascinating insight into Prescot down the ages. I have looked through this collection on a few visits to LRO and could spend hours and hours going through them. Good luck! I’m afraid, however, that I am still unable to positively link Joseph Allen to any specific address in Church Street. Unfortunately, the houses weren’t numbered prior to around 1870 and even after that many simply didn’t use a number. Around the 1830’s-1840’s, Prescot had a significant Cotton and Sail Making industry, which I always thought strange for an inland town, but this could well have accounted for Joseph Allen being a resident. There was a Sail Manufactory at the top end of Houghton Street, and also a Cotton Manufactory at the eastern end of Kemble Street, both of which are just a 5 minute walk from Church Street. In the 1818-1819-1820 Commercial directory for Lancashire, the entry for Prescot included (under “Miscellaneous”), a listing for ‘James Allen & Son, Fustian Manufacturers, Prescot factory’. A quick reference look up shows that ‘fustian’ is a heavy cloth woven from cotton. Then in 1822, Pigots listed ‘James Allen & Sons, Cotton Manufacturers” in Hillock Street (renamed to Kemble Street in 1871). So this means we now have a specific location for the factory and I have it on a map from that time. The 1824 Baines Directory also lists James Allen & Sons, Hillock Street as Fustian Manufacturers. The 1829 Pigot’s Directory listed ‘John & Richard Allen” of Hillock Street under the heading ‘Cotton Spinners and Manufacturers’. Had James now passed the business on to his sons? So are there links between these various Allens working in the cotton trade, perhaps resulting in your Joseph Allen moving to Prescot? Joseph only appears in the 1834 Directory and you appear to have located the sale of his Church Street property in 1837, so it looks like he didn’t hang around for very long. His death in Prescot Registration District (rather than the town itself) is recorded in 1845. Perhaps obtaining a copy of his death certificate might be a useful course of action? I can provide you with digital copies of the map and the directory entries if you can let me have an email address Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul_Rollins Posted May 13, 2016 Author Share Posted May 13, 2016 Thanks for all of this, Stephen. This is very interesting information. My email address is PROL205066@aol.com. Thanks, Paul Thanks for all of this, Stephen. This is very interesting information. My email address is PROL205066@aol.com. Thanks, Paul Phyll, I will contact Gateacre Unitarian today to see if they have burial records which might include Joseph and Ann Allen. I will let you know what I find out. Thanks, Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RATTY Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 Stephen did you know that a lot of the barges on canals in those days had sails? The Mersey Flat was used here and up to Manchester, it was a canal boat that was also sea going for short trips, then there was the Yorkshire Keel. ..http://www.peoplescollection.wales/items/45151 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen nulty Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 Yes, but there are no canals or rivers near Prescot, which is inland and on high ground It has always been a curiosity to me how it developed a sail making industry! Paul, I'll send you the docs shortly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RATTY Posted May 15, 2016 Share Posted May 15, 2016 But there are 2 miles away in St Helens and 3 miles the other way at Widnes, no distance at all in those days. I know it doesn't prove why but In the Liverpool museums Knowsley Historic Settlement Study Part-6 it states Two other industries were important to Prescot in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries ( apart from watch making ) potteries and .. sail making, but the emergence of steam powered shipping sent the industry into decline. So the proximity to water obviously didn't matter much If you look at this collection you will see Mersey flats on the Sankey canal at St Helens (being fines for leaving drawbridges open) and at Penketh Tannery and Newton Arches. It also states that the Sankey was built for the Mersey Flats https://uk.pinterest.com/source/scars.org.uk/ Sorry to veer off topic but I would think any cloth manufacturer would make what was in demand at the time and this explains the sails Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeoffB Posted May 15, 2016 Share Posted May 15, 2016 I believe the looms were steam powered - it must have been easier to transport the cloth than the coal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RATTY Posted May 15, 2016 Share Posted May 15, 2016 Graves of Mother Ann Allen, daughter Ann Allen and son John Irving Allen found at Toxteth Park Cemetery Liverpool, details to follow in PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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