TWISS or TWIST from Haydock

[Lainey1978]

Hello,

 

I'm descended from Ruth Twiss (or Twist), the illegitimate daughter of Eliza Twiss and..some mystery fellow. There is a whole big family story on her parentage, but I don't know whether I believe any of it or not.

 

The story is this:

 

Eliza was living and working in a manor house in Bryn(?) as a servant. It is said she was a bit "slow," and the manor lord's son took advantage of her. Ruth was the result, and Eliza, unable to raise Ruth on her own, returned to live with her parents, Joseph and Mary. The father's parents, horrified, sent him to Australia (I am not sure why--so he couldn't marry Eliza? I don't know), and in one version of the story, he returned every year to ask Eliza's family if he could raise Ruth, and every year, they said no. In another version of the story, the father's parents asked to raise Ruth.

 

I have no idea if any of this is true or not. I really just want to know who Ruth's father was. I've even had my DNA tested in hopes of finding clues, but so far I'm not sure where to even start.

 

I have what I think must be Ruth's birth certificate, but her mother's name is listed as "Margaret," not Eliza. But that's the only record that says Margaret that I know of. But everything else is right--the date of birth, the address--so I'm very confused about that.

 

I also have Ruth's marriage certificate, which lists her father as Joseph Twiss--which should actually have been her grandfather. So no clues there. Any suggestions? Thanks in advance!

[Pete]

Sorry I aint no help.. but names like Ruth Marg and esp Eliza are far better names than they have today.

[Lainey1978]

What do you mean?

 

They're getting to be a bit much when you have hundreds of years of generations that just use the same names over and over! LOL!

[Pete]

Yay but! todays names that parents give their kids are just naff.. I spoze I am old fashioned and like the very early names.. there is something majestic about them (Apart from the likes of Puffy faggots example..Cecil, Beatrix and Marmaduke .. frintstance Calum and leon and god knows what are too 2015..

[Phyll]

Hi Lainey1978, to St. Helens Connect. Don't worry, someone will help you,

but can you give more info. on the dates of the births and marriage certs you have please, as that might help.

 

Meantime, you may have already seen these, but is this her Baptism in LOPC?

 

Baptism: 29 Jun 1851 St Thomas, Ashton in Makerfield, Lancashire, England

Ruth Twiss - 1 Illegitimate Child of Eliza Twiss

Born: 18 May 1851

Abode: Haydock

Occupation: Servant

Notes: [Transcribed from Bishop's Transcripts]

Baptised by: Edward Pigot Vicar

Register: Baptisms 1844 - 1861, Page 144, Entry 1153

Source: LDS Film 1885658

 

And is this Eliza?

 

Baptism: 8 May 1831 Ashton Chapel, Ashton in Makerfield, Lancashire, England

Eliza Twiss - 8 Child & 7 Daughter of Joseph Twiss & Mary

Born: 24 Mar 1831

Abode: Smithy houses in Haydock

Occupation: Engineer

Baptised by: Edmund Sibson Minister of Ashton

Register: Baptisms 1828 - 1844, Page 76, Entry 613

Source: LDS Film 1885658

 

Also, I don't know if there is a family connection, but just to let you know, there was a

James Twiss and a Joseph Twiss killed in the Wood Pit Haydock Colliery Explosion in 1878.

 

Burial: 16 Jun 1878 St Thomas, Ashton in Makerfield, Lancashire, England

James Twiss -

Age: 27 yrs

Abode: Haydock

Notes: [from the number of men buried over a short period of time the deceased could

have died in a coal pit accident]

Buried by: H. Siddall

Register: Burials 1874 - 1888, Page 88, Entry 697

Source: LDS Film 1885663

 

Burial: 16 Jun 1878 St Thomas, Ashton in Makerfield, Lancashire, England

Joseph Twiss -

Age: 22 yrs

Abode: Haydock

Notes: [from the number of men buried over a short period of time the deceased could

have died in a coal pit accident]

Buried by: H. Siddall

Register: Burials 1874 - 1888, Page 87, Entry 696

Source: LDS Film 1885663

 

http://www.old-merseytimes.co.uk/haydockexplosion1878.html

[Lainey1978]

Yes to both, and the dates of birth are correct.

 

Ruth married in 1871 to John Sudworth. I forget the exact date..

June 26, 1871

Those two (Joseph and James) killed in the coal pit explosion had to be cousins, I think.

 

Eliza's father was named Joseph but he died in 1866 of a cholera epidemic, as did her mother, Mary.

But the father of Eliza, Joseph, also had a brother named James. I believe he owned a pub called the Horse and Stables or something like that.

[Phyll]

Hi, Thanks for the info. I'll keep looking, but I don't think I can find much more

as I don't have paid access to some of the sites, but someone will probably help soon.

 

Meantime, James Twiss must have had the Wagon and Horses on Clipsley Lane, Haydock, they used it for inquests.

 

There's a sad tale on this link,

 

http://www.old-merseytimes.co.uk/deathsandinquests1850.html

[FRANK]

FYI - the Smithy houses in Haydock were situated where the present nos.75 to 85 Clipsly Lane are now .

[Lainey1978]

Hi, Thanks for the info. I'll keep looking, but I don't think I can find much more

as I don't have paid access to some of the sites, but someone will probably help soon.

 

Meantime, James Twiss must have had the Wagon and Horses on Clipsley Lane, Haydock, they used it for inquests.

 

There's a sad tale on this link,

 

http://www.old-merseytimes.co.uk/deathsandinquests1850.html

:/

 

Yes, that's the name I was looking for. I thought the Wagon and Horses was a pub. Now I'm confused. What was it?

 

FYI - the Smithy houses in Haydock were situated where the present nos.75 to 85 Clipsly Lane are now .

Thank you! I live in Canada, though, so..I dunno what this means.

[Le200]

The Wagon & Horses was a pub but inquests were held there back then.

[Phyll]

Sorry, Yes it was a Pub, I should have said, 'they also used it for inquests.'

 

There's a pic of it on here.

 

http://www.sthelens-connect.net/home/pub-268-Wagon_&_Horses.html

 

And here's a pic of 75-85 Clipsley Lane, Haydock, where the Smithy Houses, Haydock, (where Eliza lived) once were.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/75+Clipsley+Ln,+Haydock,+St+Helens,+Merseyside+WA11+0UE/@53.4676944,-2.6853854,3a,75y,175.08h,85.08t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1snnwx597ieyiFg75mG-t30w!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3Dnnwx597ieyiFg75mG-t30w%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dsearch.TACTILE.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D221.00829%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656!4m2!3m1!1s0x487b04b54caa097b:0x3e17773c3348d193

 

Don't give up on getting more info. more people might help after the weekend.

 

Meantime, I found a Facebook site for Haydock, with photos and maps, maybe that will give you some ideas of what it was like back then and someone there might be able to help too.

 

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Haydock-Past-Present/265025493931?sk=wall

[FRANK]

 

This 1911 photo of Clipsley lane in 1911 shows the area around Smithy Row. Unfortunately, Smithy Row was set back further than the other houses and is therefore not visible but was situated on the right side of the road shown in the picture. If you follow the houses down the right side of the road, you can see a gap in the houses just before the light coloured gable end of a house about a quarter of the way in from the left hand edge of the photo. The 4 houses of Smithy Row were situated in the gap - along with the Smithy. The Wagon and Horses pub - out of frame - was located at the far end of the row of houses with the light coloured gable.

 

​

[Lainey1978]

I'm confused again--was Stone Row a different place from Smithy Row? I found a pic of Stone Row, I think on that Facebook site. I will try to attach it.

 

I can't find it yet.

ETA: Found it.

[FRANK]

Stone and Smithy rows were different places. Hope this pic explains.

 

 

 

1928 map of the area.

 

 

​

 

​

[Lainey1978]

Thank you; that's very helpful!

 

How come Stone Row looks white in my pic and dark in yours? I suppose they may have just painted it and that's a stupid question, lol.

 

So, Ruth Twiss's birth certificate (if I have the right one--it's confusing because it says her mother's name was Margaret but it was Eliza in every other record, but all the other info is correct), it says she lived in Stone Row when she was born.

 

Ruth's marriage record has her living in Downall Green in Ashton in Makerfield.

 

I'm sure I saw info that she lived in Smithy Row at some point. Now I've got to go look..

 

ETA: Okay, I found something--she and her family lived with the Heyes family on Smithy Row in 1861. I believe I read somewhere that they were cousins.

[Kirsty]

Hi Lainey,

 

I have this same TWISS / TWIST family in my tree. I'm descended from Ruth's great-grandparents, Thomas TWISS 1753 - 1829 and Sarah nee KNOWLES 1759 - 1850.

 

I'd also heard the story of Eliza becoming pregnant through an employer where she was a servant and that Eliza was, for want of a better word, 'slow' and that her parents helped raise Ruth.

 

I'm intrigued by what you mention with regards to Ruth's birth certificate. Are you able to post a scan? I've only seen one birth registration that looked like a hit for Ruth;

 

June Quarter 1851 - Warrington reg. district. Is this the certificate you have?

 

I just don't know where the name Margaret has come from? Eliza didn't even have a sister named Margaret?

 

Speaking of sisters, did you know that three of Eliza's elder sisters had illegitimate daughters?

Sarah b. 1815, the eldest of Joseph and Mary's children, had Esther b. 1834 & Hannah b. 1840

Ann b. 1817 had Sarah b. 1838

Ellen b. 1826 had Mary 1845 - 1816 & Mary Jane b. 1848

 

Interestingly, Eliza's sister, Ellen, is also recorded as a servant within her daughter's, Mary 1845 - 1816, baptismal record. I wonder if Eliza and Ellen worked as servants in the same house (talk about a can of worms)? Also, the address of Stone Row is associated with Ellen and her daughters.

 

Kirsty

 

[Lainey1978]

Hi Kirsty!

 

I'm on my ipad atm, but I will try to show you the birth certificate. Try this link: http://mediasvc.ancestry.ca/v2/image/namespaces/1093/media/8784b04f-c132-45d6-9089-90b9ae1527bd?client=TreesUI

 

I did not know about the sisters! I knew there were some Twiss girls who had a few illegitimate children, but I'm working backwards to try to document my tree, and I haven't made it that far yet. I don't quite know who's who. Very interesting, though! I will need to look for those records!

 

I'm confused by what you wrote about Ellen's daughters---she named both of them a variation of Mary? And you said the first Mary was 1845-1816. Did you mean 1861? Or 1916?

[Phizz]

Hi

I have sent you a message with my email address. Ruth married the brother of my maternal great grandmother and I have put the marriage cert on Ancestry Joseph was her grandfather. Kirsty and I found out quite a lot about the Twiss family and I have part of a book written by one of the Sudworth descendants so hopefully you will be able to sort out the family you are looking for.

[Lainey1978]

Hi

I have sent you a message with my email address. Ruth married the brother of my maternal great grandmother and I have put the marriage cert on Ancestry Joseph was her grandfather. Kirsty and I found out quite a lot about the Twiss family and I have part of a book written by one of the Sudworth descendants so hopefully you will be able to sort out the family you are looking for.

 

Hi! I got it; I sent you an email this morning.

 

Is the book "The Hub of Life?" I have that, too.

[Kirsty]

Grr, getting frustrated with this forum. Don't know what I'm doing wrong.

 

• I'm not getting any e-mail notifications to posts (and I've ticked the box saying that I definitely do want to receive e-mail notifications).
• I can't copy and paste into a post/reply.
• I've been unable to use the "link" feature.
• And for some reason I can't use the "Quote this post feature".

No end of frustration. I just wish I understood what was going wrong. Anyway.. Rant over - I digress..

 

 

Lainey, with regards to your post of 30th September (can't quote or copy & paste and didn't receive notification of your reply - so sorry);

Ellen Twiss and her daughters;

 

Ellen Twiss b. 09/09/1826 had three daughters (that I know of), two of which were named Mary;

1. Mary TWISS born 09/10/1845 in Haydock. Mary died at just 1 year old in October 1846. NOTE: No record of Mary's father.
2. Mary Jane TWISS born 19/06/1848 in Haydock. Ellen's second daughter, Mary Jane was born nearly 2 year after the first Mary had died. NOTE: No record of Mary Jane's father.
3. Ann GILBODY born towards the end of 1850 in the Chorlton area of Manchester. I don't have a baptism but the birth reg. was Q4 1850, Chorlton on Medlock. NOTE: Ann Gilbody was born within wedlock to her mother Ellen and husband, John GILBODY.

Hope that helps clear up Ellen TWISS and her daughters.

 

Bye for now, Kirsty

 

P.S. Lovely to see a post from Phizz

[Phizz]

Lovely to see you are still posting too Kirsty. so am glad I have recently started coming on this site more often. Afraid I lapsed! Have you seen the "Items of news about Haydock" on this site? It mentions the 1866 cholera outbreak when six of Twiss family died in August.

[Le200]

This man fits into this thread:

http://www.sthelensrollsofhonour.co.uk/casualty-2483-John_Knowles.html

[Lainey1978]

I didn't get any notifications, either. I just came here to check if anyone answered this thread!

 

Thanks to all for the extra information. I made it up to Hannah Twiss (going in order of birth, from oldest to youngest) and had to take a break. It drives me bonkers that I can't find, like, ONE census in some of their lives.

 

Phizz, I might need help with the Sudworth line as well. They confuse me to no end. For example, my great-grandfather was John Sudworth, born 1877. He's the one who married Ruth Twiss. His father was John Sudworth, born to James Sudworth and Jane Crank in 1848. I can't find ANY sort of birth record for him. No baptism, nothing. Any ideas?

I didn't get any notifications, either. I just came here to check if anyone answered this thread!

 

Thanks to all for the extra information. I made it up to Ellen Twiss (going in order of birth, from oldest to youngest) and had to take a break.

 

Phizz, I might need help with the Sudworth line as well. They confuse me to no end.

 

This man fits into this thread:

http://www.sthelensrollsofhonour.co.uk/casualty-2483-John_Knowles.html

 

Wow, he was handsome!

 

I'm shallow sorry.

[Kirsty]

Hi Phizz,

 

If you've lapsed, I've mega-lapsed - lol. My youngest started school full-time last month and I've suddenly got free time in the day. It's lovely to be doing a bit of Family History again.

 

I haven't seen "Items of news about Haydock" but I'm going to check it out now. Thanks for the tip.

 

 

Hi Lainey,

 

At least it's not just me struggling and not getting notifications - lol. Welcome re. the info on Ellen and keep up the good work with those Twiss'.

 

 

Bye for now, Kirsty

Phizz, I've just been trying to find the "Items of news about Haydock" but I think I'm looking in the wrong place. Could you point me in the right direction? Kirsty

[halj]

Just read all the posts about the Twiss Family, very enlightening. I have a distant connection to Mary Twiss via Henry Harrison in my tree. Thanks all.