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crank caverns where do they goi want to know about crank caverns
Started By james seddon, Jun 12 2004 01:37 PM
575 replies to this topic
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Posted 21 July 2009 - 02:20 PM
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Posted 22 July 2009 - 03:07 PM
Hello everyone, after a few years since I last looked at this, it's nice to see it's still going, lets not let things grind to a halt!
Try doing a search for Rainford Delf, somewhere down the line Delph has been mixed up with Delf (a mine or quarry). You wil find some references to the 1800's lists of coal mines and a Charles Howarth who apparently owned them. Dig a little deeper and you will find some papers from the 1900's titled "The triassic and permian rocks of the midland counties of england". You will find some references to Rainfords sandstone geology there. Also there is a reference from st.helens star archives that "Little delf coal was mined from a Crank Farm?? on a "day high" drift mine". What's this about??
Rainford has an interesting geology, the fact that coal measures and sandsone exist so closely indicates the presence of some fault lines (read the above literature). Natural caves CAN form in insoluble rock along these faults, it seems strange to me that years ago people dug these very small holes to access larger caves?? All that rock went somewhere and definitely not through some of the openings you can barely squeeze through down there!
I don't believe coal was ever extracted from Rainford Delf simply because thre is no evidence of it in the area (can't rule this out though being so close to rainfords coal fields). I have an old map of the area (you can get it from old-maps.com), it clearly shows rainford delf as a sandstone quarry, also some sandstone quarries nearby fairfield hospital which I didn't know about. I will try to post them once I get used to this website. There are some markings on the Ordnance Survey website (you can download the maps) of a cutting in the woods nearby crank caverns if you walk the footpath towards moss bank. Might be related.
I know you have all heard this before but I have been going up there since I was a kid (being from Rainford) but never ventured far in. When I was about 19 I went up there with a mate (Tom who I've now known for years now and he ain't no liar) who absolutely swore down he had been to what he thought was the lake. I'm trying to get hold of him for more info. The access for this route has gone and was above the main caves to the left (since filled in by the local farmer). He called this the original mouse hole and the only way down to anything worth seeing. He pointed out where it was but it's well grown over. He said after hours following the passages (and crossing the stream) you come out onto a ledge with nothing in front only darkness. Throwing stones off this he said you can hear the water below. There is a bricked up wall down there but at the time you can pass this and carry on.
Where did the stub on Wikipedia on the caverns come from (Winchman??), I'd like to know where you got this info from as it's very interesting, I believe the opening now blocked off was the secure access into the deeper caves.
Have a look at the area. Carr mill was dammed up in the late 1800's (if I remember reading correctly) to provide water for the sankey canal and the water level is about 30-40m below the caverns, not such a great drop! The workings were in use then, maybe when they flooded the lake they flooded the mines too! It stopped work not long after. It's also interesting to note that more water flows out over carr mill dam than appears to flow into it suggesting it is being fed by another means.
The lower caverns (gated) don't seem to go anywhere although I have known some very cold winds to come from it! Wind doesn't some from nowhere! Tom also told me there were maps but basically drawn up by kids at the time. All the rumours aren't true but there is more to find down there, sorry to hear about that kid but someone needs to organise something, get down there before they fill those caverns in for good because they are sure to eventually!!! Find that mouse hole!
Keep up the good work! Keep looking and be safe! The way in is there somewhere so find it!!
I'd love to go looking again but I live and work in China now, maybe I'll be back next year!
Try doing a search for Rainford Delf, somewhere down the line Delph has been mixed up with Delf (a mine or quarry). You wil find some references to the 1800's lists of coal mines and a Charles Howarth who apparently owned them. Dig a little deeper and you will find some papers from the 1900's titled "The triassic and permian rocks of the midland counties of england". You will find some references to Rainfords sandstone geology there. Also there is a reference from st.helens star archives that "Little delf coal was mined from a Crank Farm?? on a "day high" drift mine". What's this about??
Rainford has an interesting geology, the fact that coal measures and sandsone exist so closely indicates the presence of some fault lines (read the above literature). Natural caves CAN form in insoluble rock along these faults, it seems strange to me that years ago people dug these very small holes to access larger caves?? All that rock went somewhere and definitely not through some of the openings you can barely squeeze through down there!
I don't believe coal was ever extracted from Rainford Delf simply because thre is no evidence of it in the area (can't rule this out though being so close to rainfords coal fields). I have an old map of the area (you can get it from old-maps.com), it clearly shows rainford delf as a sandstone quarry, also some sandstone quarries nearby fairfield hospital which I didn't know about. I will try to post them once I get used to this website. There are some markings on the Ordnance Survey website (you can download the maps) of a cutting in the woods nearby crank caverns if you walk the footpath towards moss bank. Might be related.
I know you have all heard this before but I have been going up there since I was a kid (being from Rainford) but never ventured far in. When I was about 19 I went up there with a mate (Tom who I've now known for years now and he ain't no liar) who absolutely swore down he had been to what he thought was the lake. I'm trying to get hold of him for more info. The access for this route has gone and was above the main caves to the left (since filled in by the local farmer). He called this the original mouse hole and the only way down to anything worth seeing. He pointed out where it was but it's well grown over. He said after hours following the passages (and crossing the stream) you come out onto a ledge with nothing in front only darkness. Throwing stones off this he said you can hear the water below. There is a bricked up wall down there but at the time you can pass this and carry on.
Where did the stub on Wikipedia on the caverns come from (Winchman??), I'd like to know where you got this info from as it's very interesting, I believe the opening now blocked off was the secure access into the deeper caves.
Have a look at the area. Carr mill was dammed up in the late 1800's (if I remember reading correctly) to provide water for the sankey canal and the water level is about 30-40m below the caverns, not such a great drop! The workings were in use then, maybe when they flooded the lake they flooded the mines too! It stopped work not long after. It's also interesting to note that more water flows out over carr mill dam than appears to flow into it suggesting it is being fed by another means.
The lower caverns (gated) don't seem to go anywhere although I have known some very cold winds to come from it! Wind doesn't some from nowhere! Tom also told me there were maps but basically drawn up by kids at the time. All the rumours aren't true but there is more to find down there, sorry to hear about that kid but someone needs to organise something, get down there before they fill those caverns in for good because they are sure to eventually!!! Find that mouse hole!
Keep up the good work! Keep looking and be safe! The way in is there somewhere so find it!!
I'd love to go looking again but I live and work in China now, maybe I'll be back next year!
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Posted 22 July 2009 - 07:59 PM
Thank you for that interesting post. However I would make the following comments:-
You referenced the map on old-maps (the 1850 Ordnance Survey map) and later you reflect on the Carr Mill Dam originating in the late 1800s.
If you look at the 1850 map, you can see there are 2 dams at Carr Mill, The upper dam and the lower dam. The dam wall between the two running from near the old boat house close to Martinadale Rd to near where the Speed Boat Club is now.
The dam wall for the lower dam being where it is currently, at the top of Happy Valley. So the damming clearly predates 1850 and probably goes back to the mid 1750s when the Sankey Canal was completed.
How does all this impact on Crank Caverns? Is there a story connecting the Dam to the Caverns?
The reason I ask is that along with all the other myths, recorded on here, about where the caverns go to, there is another.
In Billinge there is a stretch of water known as "the twelve yarder". It is on the left as go from Billinge to Crank. Rumours abound about this stretch of water.
One of them is, that it is an old mine working which has become flooded with water flowing down the caves that connect it to the caverns. A distance of only a few hundred yards.
Further information on the connection between the caverns and the 12 yarder would be welcome.
You referenced the map on old-maps (the 1850 Ordnance Survey map) and later you reflect on the Carr Mill Dam originating in the late 1800s.
If you look at the 1850 map, you can see there are 2 dams at Carr Mill, The upper dam and the lower dam. The dam wall between the two running from near the old boat house close to Martinadale Rd to near where the Speed Boat Club is now.
The dam wall for the lower dam being where it is currently, at the top of Happy Valley. So the damming clearly predates 1850 and probably goes back to the mid 1750s when the Sankey Canal was completed.
How does all this impact on Crank Caverns? Is there a story connecting the Dam to the Caverns?
The reason I ask is that along with all the other myths, recorded on here, about where the caverns go to, there is another.
In Billinge there is a stretch of water known as "the twelve yarder". It is on the left as go from Billinge to Crank. Rumours abound about this stretch of water.
One of them is, that it is an old mine working which has become flooded with water flowing down the caves that connect it to the caverns. A distance of only a few hundred yards.
Further information on the connection between the caverns and the 12 yarder would be welcome.
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Posted 23 July 2009 - 02:58 PM
My appologies, yes 18th century I should have said. I am just trying to look at the geology of the area, what is there to suggest a body of water could be underground? How can a cave large enough to support one have appeared? There doesn't appear to be any limestone there so how else can caves form. Yes the caves we can access and see are definitely man made but noone is going to dig out large caverns underground, haul tons of rock through holes barely big enough to get through whilst they're filling up with water around them! Small passages do form along fault lines and the sandstone lies in the middle of a coal field, cretacious I am assuming. Cretacious deposits can bear numerous rock types. There is a chance that whilst following a sandstone seam they broke though into a natural cave formation although probably not being limestone suggests they would not be very big. However, if they ran along a fault line they could also go for a long distance and may break through into a coal or other mine had such a mine ran into the supposed fault line.
With regards to the twelve yarder, I have fished on there and it is deep in places as you would expect a quarry lake to be even though it is only small. The water level never changes much but it may be fed with a flow of water keeping it at the same level from under ground. Black brook lies lower than the water level if I remember right suggesting the rock below the 12 yarder isn't permiable, also black brook lies between the caverns and 12 Yarder. I think the 12 yarder is about 20 meters below the caverns, carr mill lake is about 40 according to os maps. Sandstone being permiable leads me to think that if a lake was underground its level would be dictated by a nearby body of water unless it was upon impermiable rock and being fed from a water source, maybe the illusive stream. Are there any geological survey maps of the area avilable? I have looked but found nothing in detail, try to understand the geology of an area and you can pretty much presume what could be underground. There is no connectiom I know of between the 12 yarder or carr mill only that as large bodies of water they could dictate the level of an underground lake if there is one.
Going back to the caverns, the mouse hole isn't there any more. Forget the caverns and the gated cave, you won't get far anymore. The mouse hole was originally above the main caverns, almost at field level. It was gated over to prevent people falling in (and going in)! It was to the left of the main caverns and eventually got filled in with dirt by the farmer as the fence was easily removed, maybe his kids were going in there, I knew the Parrs kids I went to school with them! You could only get to the mouse hole easily from the field.
Does anyone know where the Wikipedia stub information came from? I'd like to know. I am trying to contact my friend who went down there years ago (mouse hole was probably filled in 18-20 years ago). He might be able to remember where it is in more detail, he showed me about 6 years ago but it looks like nothing was ever there.
The wind I was refering to came from the gated cave, the ditch that the caves are in was freezing cold, on what was a warm day you could feel the temperature drop as you walked down to it suggesting that cold air is travelling some distance and coming from somewhere, the last time I went there though it wasn't the same, no wind!
Does anyone have any info on the shaft lower down in the woods? Where does this fit in? Surely it suggests there are deeper workings there??
With regards to the twelve yarder, I have fished on there and it is deep in places as you would expect a quarry lake to be even though it is only small. The water level never changes much but it may be fed with a flow of water keeping it at the same level from under ground. Black brook lies lower than the water level if I remember right suggesting the rock below the 12 yarder isn't permiable, also black brook lies between the caverns and 12 Yarder. I think the 12 yarder is about 20 meters below the caverns, carr mill lake is about 40 according to os maps. Sandstone being permiable leads me to think that if a lake was underground its level would be dictated by a nearby body of water unless it was upon impermiable rock and being fed from a water source, maybe the illusive stream. Are there any geological survey maps of the area avilable? I have looked but found nothing in detail, try to understand the geology of an area and you can pretty much presume what could be underground. There is no connectiom I know of between the 12 yarder or carr mill only that as large bodies of water they could dictate the level of an underground lake if there is one.
Going back to the caverns, the mouse hole isn't there any more. Forget the caverns and the gated cave, you won't get far anymore. The mouse hole was originally above the main caverns, almost at field level. It was gated over to prevent people falling in (and going in)! It was to the left of the main caverns and eventually got filled in with dirt by the farmer as the fence was easily removed, maybe his kids were going in there, I knew the Parrs kids I went to school with them! You could only get to the mouse hole easily from the field.
Does anyone know where the Wikipedia stub information came from? I'd like to know. I am trying to contact my friend who went down there years ago (mouse hole was probably filled in 18-20 years ago). He might be able to remember where it is in more detail, he showed me about 6 years ago but it looks like nothing was ever there.
The wind I was refering to came from the gated cave, the ditch that the caves are in was freezing cold, on what was a warm day you could feel the temperature drop as you walked down to it suggesting that cold air is travelling some distance and coming from somewhere, the last time I went there though it wasn't the same, no wind!
Does anyone have any info on the shaft lower down in the woods? Where does this fit in? Surely it suggests there are deeper workings there??
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Posted 12 August 2009 - 09:29 AM
Interesting information about the 12 yarder and Carr Mill Dam, however are we forgetting logic? The quarrys purpose was to mine out stone as quickly and efficiently as possible hence why they dug tunnels in the first place to rafrain from buying farmland. They were not dug as exploration tunnels just mines. I wonder, looking at the small tunnels that run from the caves, weather these were to sound out stone? you know to see if there was stone worth mining, rather than open cast mining the top which would cost much more money. The whole site of the caverns including the wood is the remnants of the quarry. so there may be smaller caves around which are blocked up. I wish the reformation rhumours would stop appearing cos the caverns wernt bloomin there then! lol
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Posted 19 August 2009 - 02:45 PM
Hi all
Firstly i'd just like to say i've been sat here glued to my computer screen reading every page of this forum, its fantastic! I've never posted on a thread before so please forgive me if the message i am about to leave is irrelevant or not on topic.....
I noticed in a few of the messages people mentioning the cottage that is located pretty close the caverns and i just wondered if anyone knows of ITS history as i think it would be really interesting to know about the surrounding area of the caverns too - besides the fact 'Delf Cottage' is currently for sale for a veeeeeeery high price
) (i checked out the estate agents website to see if they had included any of the buildings history in the advertisement. probably a silly thing to expect them to have but i thought it was worth a look)! Perhaps there is some link between the original buildings that where constructed where the cottage is now and crank caverns themself (which may help shed some light on what the facts and fiction are behind some of the different stories about the caverns i.e. the fact it was a quarry mill and the rumours it was used as place of satanic worship/the story of the undergrown church etc, etc). I've tried to do a bit of research myself but havent been able to get very far with it at all, clearly i'm not very good at it! So far I have only been able to ascertain two definite facts (1) The cottage itself was originally 3 seperate gameskeepers cottages and (2)that they where constructed in 1839. I was wondering if anyone knows anything further about it and whether it has any direct connection/relevance to the caverns and their history too?
Once again i sincerely apologise if my questions are irrelevant and/or taking things completely off topic, i dont want to intrude on the forum or annoy anyone, its just after reading all the posts i got to wondering whether there was some connection between the cottage grounds and the caverns as it seems strange for something to have been built within such close proximity to them not to have some kind of historical connection or relevance. Especially when you take in to account the original gameskeepers cottages where there from as early as the 1800's (possible before or around the same time as the caverns??????)
Right i have waffled on quite enough now so i shall end my post here)
Thanks for reading.
Firstly i'd just like to say i've been sat here glued to my computer screen reading every page of this forum, its fantastic! I've never posted on a thread before so please forgive me if the message i am about to leave is irrelevant or not on topic.....
I noticed in a few of the messages people mentioning the cottage that is located pretty close the caverns and i just wondered if anyone knows of ITS history as i think it would be really interesting to know about the surrounding area of the caverns too - besides the fact 'Delf Cottage' is currently for sale for a veeeeeeery high price
) (i checked out the estate agents website to see if they had included any of the buildings history in the advertisement. probably a silly thing to expect them to have but i thought it was worth a look)! Perhaps there is some link between the original buildings that where constructed where the cottage is now and crank caverns themself (which may help shed some light on what the facts and fiction are behind some of the different stories about the caverns i.e. the fact it was a quarry mill and the rumours it was used as place of satanic worship/the story of the undergrown church etc, etc). I've tried to do a bit of research myself but havent been able to get very far with it at all, clearly i'm not very good at it! So far I have only been able to ascertain two definite facts (1) The cottage itself was originally 3 seperate gameskeepers cottages and (2)that they where constructed in 1839. I was wondering if anyone knows anything further about it and whether it has any direct connection/relevance to the caverns and their history too?Once again i sincerely apologise if my questions are irrelevant and/or taking things completely off topic, i dont want to intrude on the forum or annoy anyone, its just after reading all the posts i got to wondering whether there was some connection between the cottage grounds and the caverns as it seems strange for something to have been built within such close proximity to them not to have some kind of historical connection or relevance. Especially when you take in to account the original gameskeepers cottages where there from as early as the 1800's (possible before or around the same time as the caverns??????)
Right i have waffled on quite enough now so i shall end my post here
)Thanks for reading.
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Posted 20 August 2009 - 10:16 AM
Hello Lisa,
I woundnt say you were waffling imho thats a very valid post and a different angle to av a look at, and good on ya for reading 500 posts!!!
I woundnt say you were waffling imho thats a very valid post and a different angle to av a look at, and good on ya for reading 500 posts!!!
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Posted 20 August 2009 - 11:06 AM
Thank you daystate - it took me a long time!!! Spent virtually the whole day reading, i just found it all so interesting. I think its great for us to know and learn about the history behind our local areas.
To look at something today, for example the caves, that are now disused and not in such a great condition, and then to think that many, many years ago they were actually actively occupied and used by people as a place of work (etc), its amazing.
To look at something today, for example the caves, that are now disused and not in such a great condition, and then to think that many, many years ago they were actually actively occupied and used by people as a place of work (etc), its amazing.
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Posted 27 November 2009 - 09:10 AM
there was never an entrance to any underground tunnels in clinkham wood, the bomb hole would have been the most likely place as it was also a disused slate quarry, but there was definitely no tunnel entrance there before the council decided to use it as a land fill. as for the story about moss bank i lived up there on moss bank road for twenty three years before i got married and never heard of any such tunnel entrance in a back garden.
as regards the caverns as far as i know they were mine workings for the extraction of stone, there were all sorts of rumours about secret chambers and such like but as a youngster i explored the cavens extensively and ahilst some of them appeared to be natural the larger ones were definitly man made. as a side issue i still have a couple of fossils that i found in the caverns an amonite and a trilobite.
there are many rumours and myths surrounding the caverns and the immediate area, there is a famous one about the white rabbit which was spotted on numerous occasions near the path from moss ban to crank and of the witches coven which used to meet there in the 19th century,
as regards the caverns as far as i know they were mine workings for the extraction of stone, there were all sorts of rumours about secret chambers and such like but as a youngster i explored the cavens extensively and ahilst some of them appeared to be natural the larger ones were definitly man made. as a side issue i still have a couple of fossils that i found in the caverns an amonite and a trilobite.
there are many rumours and myths surrounding the caverns and the immediate area, there is a famous one about the white rabbit which was spotted on numerous occasions near the path from moss ban to crank and of the witches coven which used to meet there in the 19th century,
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Posted 03 December 2009 - 12:05 PM
Hi,
I have recently visited Crank Caverns and have explored the area behind the two gates that can be found at the bottom of the ditch. Could one of the guys who have been down to the lower workings please explain how they got there? After the initial crawl in, we dropped in through the hole at the back of the cave on the left to access the next level down and the main tunnels. Now, these main tunnels only seem to form a loop around to the right which, after a couple more crawls eventually lead you back to the hole which you initially dropped through to access the tunnels in the first place. So, after a night of crawling around beneath the ground and reading 34 pages of very interesting descriptions of alters, underground lakes and mirrored walls, my question is, 'where the hell are they', lol?!
Can someone who has stated in the past that they have maps of how to get to the areas mentioned above please get in touch, or if anyone can prove that these areas actually exist with photos or whatever, that would be great too. Cheers folks
Here's a pic from the second level down inside as no one seems to have actually posted any so far!
I have recently visited Crank Caverns and have explored the area behind the two gates that can be found at the bottom of the ditch. Could one of the guys who have been down to the lower workings please explain how they got there? After the initial crawl in, we dropped in through the hole at the back of the cave on the left to access the next level down and the main tunnels. Now, these main tunnels only seem to form a loop around to the right which, after a couple more crawls eventually lead you back to the hole which you initially dropped through to access the tunnels in the first place. So, after a night of crawling around beneath the ground and reading 34 pages of very interesting descriptions of alters, underground lakes and mirrored walls, my question is, 'where the hell are they', lol?!
Can someone who has stated in the past that they have maps of how to get to the areas mentioned above please get in touch, or if anyone can prove that these areas actually exist with photos or whatever, that would be great too. Cheers folks
Here's a pic from the second level down inside as no one seems to have actually posted any so far!
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Posted 03 December 2009 - 02:04 PM
There's a smokey ghost in the right half of that pic ;-)
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Posted 03 December 2009 - 02:08 PM
donkey o'tay, on 03 December 2009 - 02:04 PM, said:
There's a smokey ghost in the right half of that pic ;-)
Ha, yeah, I noticed! It was pretty dusty down there!
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Posted 03 December 2009 - 02:25 PM
Ive been there Pierre, thats my string/para chord you can see in the middle ov your picture
.
P.s have you looked in the gallery section of the site there are some pictures there.
. P.s have you looked in the gallery section of the site there are some pictures there.
Edited by daystate, 03 December 2009 - 02:28 PM.
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Posted 03 December 2009 - 02:33 PM
daystate, on 03 December 2009 - 02:25 PM, said:
Ive been there Pierre, thats my string/para chord you can see in the middle ov your picture .
.Sweet! Can you give me any more info regarding the parts of the caverns that people have mentioned on this thread, such as the deeper tunnels as we couldn't find any when we visited, doh!
PS - 'P.s have you looked in the gallery section of the site there are some pictures there' - No, I haven't mate, sorry, I'm new to the forum and haven't found my way around just yet!
Cool, cheers Daystate, just checked out the pics. Good stuff1!
Edited by Unlucky Pierre, 03 December 2009 - 02:30 PM.
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Posted 03 December 2009 - 02:35 PM
Youve done it all mate..... thats it! The real deep workings from what i can gather were blocked of many years ago via the mouse hole which was higher up than the gated entrance you went in.
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