[GregO]

Hi,
Just found this wonderful site. My grandparents came to Australia from St Helens in 1912.
I am interested in information on my following ancestoral families, mostly in the 1800's around St Helens and Prescot.
HEYES, TOPPING, STRETTLE, KAY, BEETLE, HILL, CASE. Also CARLEY is a side shoot.
I have some details on them and am always willing to share.
Any help would be appreciated.

[Hugh]

I have Toppings and Hayes John Jophnson Married a Ellen Topp9inh on the 14 May 1885 I have there childern
Ellen topping Father Hugh Topping Born 1841 WindleMother Catterine Born 1845 Windle

Other children

Thomas born 1884

Ellen Born 1866 I think this is ellens Familey
William born 1886
Joseph born 1870 ( 10 M old)
Alice Newton born 1829 Married JOSEPH hayes born 1824 there children were GEORGEborn1855 Thomas born 1856 Alice born 1866 and more

[eejayess]

I have a Peter Beetle born circa 1804 in Parr St.Helens, he married Ellen Heyes in 1830 and had daughters Ann and Alice.

[stephen nulty]

Although perhaps _after the period in which you are interested, there are a few HEYES and CASE entries on my website at www.prescot-rollofhonour.info

[GregO]

Hi, A few more details
My ancestors from grandparents back are: (numbers refer to generations)

3.Matthew HILL (b. 1888-St. Helens, d. 1961- Aust), m. 04 Dec 1909 Edge Hill L.; Margaret CASE b. 1884-Prescot, d. 1959- Aust,
4. John HILL b.1856 Billinge, d.31 Mar 1930-Aust), m. 16 May 1877 Prescot; Margaret Ann KAY b.1858 St Helens, d. 1913- Aust,
5. Matthew HILL b.abt 1825 Billinge, d. ??? m. 27 Mar 1848 Wigan; Alice BEETLE b.1832 St Helens, d. ???
6. John HILL b.1785 Wigan d. 1842 m. ???? Billinge; Elizabeth ..????.. b.1791 Wigan, d. ???

4. William CASE (b.1853-Prescot, d.1906-Prescot), m. ??? Margaret JENNING (b.1856-West Derby, d. 1895-Prescot)
5. Joseph CASE (b.1818-Prescot, d.1906-Prescot); m.06 Dec 1840 Liverpool; Ellen STRETTLE (b.1818-Prescot, d. Aft 1881)

5. John KAY (b. Abt 1821-St Helens, d. ???), (m1. Mary Lawson 1844) m2. 02 Aug 1857 St Helens; Frances WATKINSON (NEE TOPPING) (b.Abt 1812-St Helens, d. ???)
6. Henry KAY b. ??? d. ??? m. ???
6. Joseph TOPPING b. abt 1777 d. ??? m. ??? Dorothy ….???

6. Peter BEETLE (b. Abt 1806-Parr d. Bef 1881-Parr), m.14 Nov 1830 Prescot; Ellen HEYES (b. 1811-Orrel, ;d. Aft 1881-Parr)

eejayess, on 21 December 2009 - 08:14 AM, said:

I have a Peter Beetle born circa 1804 in Parr St.Helens, he married Ellen Heyes in 1830 and had daughters Ann and Alice.

Hi eejayess,

As you can see in my other post, I am from Alice; and Peter BEETLE and Ellen HEYES are my 3 x gt grandparents. I also have another child for them: Thomas Beetle c.28-12-1834. Do you have any further information?

Thanks for the contact, Greg

stephen nulty, on 21 December 2009 - 06:27 PM, said:

Although perhaps _after the period in which you are interested, there are a few HEYES and CASE entries on my website at www.prescot-rollofhonour.info

I was actually on your website yesterday and found William CASE son of James and Anne; but cannot place them into the family at the moment. I have a James born 1862 but marrying a Jane Roberts. The Heyes are too recent as I only have Ellen HEYES b. 1811.
It is a very detailed website. Well done. The HILLs by-the-way went to WW1 from Australia 2-3 yrs after they came out here.
Thanks for the help.

Hugh, on 21 December 2009 - 03:18 AM, said:

I have Toppings and Hayes John Jophnson Married a Ellen Topp9inh on the 14 May 1885 I have there childern
Ellen topping Father Hugh Topping Born 1841 WindleMother Catterine Born 1845 Windle

Other children

Thomas born 1884

Ellen Born 1866 I think this is ellens Familey
William born 1886
Joseph born 1870 ( 10 M old)
Alice Newton born 1829 Married JOSEPH hayes born 1824 there children were GEORGEborn1855 Thomas born 1856 Alice born 1866 and more

Hi Hugh,
Unfortunately I can not see any connection to the TOPPING's that you mention. See my details on the TOPPINGs.... that is about all I have!
Thanks

[eejayess]

Hi Greg, I have just been on the OPC for Lancashire and there is a marriage for Matthew Hill and Alice Beatle for March 1848 but it states that Alice's father was Richard not Peter. Do you think that this is a clerical error?

[GregO]

Hi Edna,
It is Richard Beatle on their marriage certificate also.(sent to you via email). Alice is also stated as being 18 which dose not fit her christening of 1832. (maybe they just put it as 18 because she was young (abt 15)). Will try and check parents.

[ctop]

Joseph Topping (b1777 in St.Helens) married Dorothy Williams (b. 1876 where?) on 29th.Nov 1798 at St. Mary's in Prescot.
They had 8 children :

Mary (1800-?), Ann (1805-?), Joseph (1807-98 - married Alice Roughley), Morgan (1809-79 - married Catherine Halsall), Dorothy (1812-? - marrie Michael Owen), Mary ((1814-? - married Thomas Watkinson and then John Kay), Thomas (1818-79 - married Elizabeth Bach and William (1818-?) married mary Helsby.

But who were Joseph Topping's (and Dorothy Williams) parents?

[GregO]

Hi ctop,

I had since found Joseph & Dorothy's wedding; but had only found 5 children.

We have a couple of differences:
1. Mary b.1800 did not have
2. Ann b. 1805 did not have
3. Joseph and his marriage I do have
4. Morgan b. 1809 did not have
5. Dorothy b. 1812 do not have but have Frances being born abt 1812
6.Frances b.abt 1812. It was Frances (not Mary) who married Thomas Watkinson on 29 Sep 1833 at Rainford Parish Church, Lancashire. Much later she married John Kay on 02 Aug 1857 at St Helens Parish Church, Lancashire. She is my gt gt grandmother from the Kay marriage
7. Mary b.1814 I do have (2 Mary's ... did the 1st die young?)
8. Thomas b.1818 I do have but I have his baptism as 15 Sep 1816
9. William b. 1818 I have his baptism as 4 Oct 1818

That would make 9 children.

Also Dorothy Williams birth. I assume you mean 1776?

I have the names only of 6 of Frances's Watkinson children and 2 of her Kay children; and 3 for Joseph and wife. If you want them, let me know.

Are you descended from any of these Topping's?

I could email you a couple of certificates if you are interested.

I have not really searched for the parents of Joseph and Dorothy yet. Difficult that far back!


Greg

This post has been edited by GregO: 09 January 2010 - 02:56 AM

[tyrawhitt]

Hello,

Cannot add to the Joseph & Dorothy Topping discussion, its defeated me so far for 20 years. But I can add a "hook" into the descendants. I relate to both through........

Joseph & Dorothy Topping nee Willaims - Windle
...William & Mary Topping nee Helsby - St.Helens
.......James & Catherine Topping nee Winstanley - Wigan, Scholes
..........Edward & Frances Topping nee Carter - Wigan Wallgate
..............James & Doris Annie Lloyd Hargreaves nee Topping - Wigan, Wallgate
..................Thomas James & Iris Gaskell nee Hargreaves - Wigan, Springfield
......................Christopher James Gaskell - b. Wigan Billinge, now Stockport.

C.

[Michael Williams]

Hello,

I have 10 children for Joseph and Dorothy from various published trees:

1. Mary (1800)
2. James (1802-1844) m Eliza Greenall
3. Martha(1803) m George Kay
4. Ann (1805) m Thomas Valantine
5. Joseph (1807-1867 possibly but before 1871) m Alice Roughley
6. Morgan (1809-1879) m Catherine Halsall
7. Dorothy (1812-1886) m Michael Owens
8. Mary/Frances (1814) m Thomas Watkinson m John Kay ...Due to the dates and no twin baptisms, my assumption has been that Mary and Frances are the same person switching to use her other given name, but I have not proven this.
9. Thomas (circa 1815 - bef 1881?) m Elizabeth Bach
10. William (1818 - bef 1861 ?) m Mary Helsby

There is still the issue of whether all the identified can be verified as siblings.

I am pretty sure of my branch and am currently trying to plug gaps. This is 5 (Joseph & Alice Roughley > John & Ann Birch > Thomas & Ann Erlam > Ann Rosa & William Pendlebury > my parents > me).

I have also been through 9 & 10 in some detail via BMDs and census returns. C, my tree stops with Elizabeth Alice as the only identified child of Edward and I have a few other questions particularly around William (1818) and his son James.

For 8 I have 7 Watkinson and 2 Kay children but nothing yet below that. Greg, I would be interested in the details of your tree and certificates if you have them.

Kind Regards,

Michael Williams

This post has been edited by Michael Williams: 17 January 2010 - 02:25 AM

[GregO]

Hi C and Michael,

Thanks for your info. The Topping family is starting to build!

Frances/Mary is my ancestor.

On her marriages to both Wilkinson and Kay she was shown only as Frances. On her daughter's death certificate (Aust.) the mother was Frances. So she went by the name Frances but it now looks like she was bpt as Mary ?? Probably after her youngest sister who looks like she died as a child. She was also listed as 44 at her marriage to Kay on 2-8-1857. Still some uncertainity there.

Marriage: 29 Sep 1833 All Saints, Rainford, Lancashire, England
Thomas Watkinson - Engineer Bachelor of Of this Parish
Frances Topping - (X), Spinster of Of this Parish
Witness: Jane Banks; John Watkinson
Married by Banns by: William Ellam Minister
Register: Marriages 1831 - 1837, Page 40, Entry 119
Source: LDS Film 1657567

I also have her marriage certificate to John Kay.

They were both widowed at the time.
According to the marriage certificate John was 35 in 1857, so birth about 1821-22.
John was also married before; to a Mary Lawson b. 1824 d. <1857 married 29 Dec 1844 at St.Mary, Prescot, Lancashire, England. Certificate attached.
I do not have any children of this marriage. (have not searched for them yet as not related)

Frances’s children that I have are as follows:

FRANCES TOPPING (b.1814-St Helens, Lancashire, England)
Sp1: Thomas WATKINSON (b.1816-Lancashire, England; m.29 Sep 1833 - Rainford Parish Church, Lancashire; d.Bef 1857)
Children:
1. John WATKINSON bpt. 12 Apr 1835 St Mary (now St Helen), St Helens, Lancashire
2. Joseph WATKINSON bpt.4 Jan 1837 St Mary (now St Helen), St Helens, Lancashire
3. Dorothy WATKINSON
4. Frances WATKINSON
5. Thomas WATKINSON
6. Mary WATKINSON bpt. 28 Oct 1849 St Mary (now St Helen), St Helens, Lancashire
7. Can I get the 7th one that you have Michael?

2nd Marriage:
FRANCES WATKINSON (NEE TOPPING)
Sp2: JOHN KAY (b.Abt 1821-St Helens, Lancashire, England; m.02 Aug 1857 St Helens Parish Church, Lancashire)

1. MARGARET ANN KAY (b.1858-St. Helens, Lancashire, England; d.1913-Kurri Kurri, NSW, Australia)
sp: JOHN HILL (b.1856-Billinge, Lancashire, England; m.1877 - Prescot, Lancashire, England; 1930-Kurri Kurri, NSW, Australia)
2. Martha KAY

Do not know Frances, Thomas or John’s death date yet.

I descend from Margaret Ann KAY m. John HILL as above >Matthew Hill b. St Helens, m. Margaret CASE b. Prescot > my parents > me.
My grandparents immigrated to Australia in 1912/13 with most of their grown up children and their families and parents John & Margaret Ann HILL.

I have information that Joseph was killed in the Garswood Colliery Explosion of 1867 see http://www.old-merse...garswoodex.html
Can you confirm this Michael?

Will PM you both re certificates.

Regards,
Greg

This post has been edited by GregO: 17 January 2010 - 03:54 AM

[Michael Williams]

Greg,

The fact that Frances's age was recorded as 44 on her marriage is probably not a problem ...and probably true. The only date I have that indicates her birth is the baptism date of 24 Apr 1814. I have recorded her birth as "before 24 Apr 1814". My son was baptised 7 months after his birth and it is likely the Frances could have been born months (even many months) before this date ...unles you have a birth date from somewhere?

Are you aware that Frances (1814) married on the same day as her sister Dorothy?

The Watkinson children I have (I have not verified these)are:

John (c1834)
Joseph (c1836)
Dorothy (c1838)
Ellen (c1842)
Frances (c1844)
Thomas (c1847)
Mary (c1849)

As it happens I am just investigating the liklihood the "my" Joseph Topping is the one who died in 1867 at Garswood. All evidence points to this being the case. The final "pointing of the finger" is pure journalistic conjecture and just goes to show that we should treat newspaper "evidence" with the same care as with the tabloids of today. A relative has pointed me to this site that provides reports on mining incidents, including details of the inquests.

http://www.cmhrc.co.uk/site/disasters/

Both 1866 and the 1867 incident are covered. These appear to be compiled reports from various sources? I have noticed that Joseph's age is reported here as 64 here rather than 61. If the IGI record for his baptism is correct he was born 16 Aug 1807 and would have been 60.

Copies of the certificates will be gratefully accepted!

This post has been edited by Michael Williams: 18 January 2010 - 12:01 AM

[windled]

I have been doing a little research on William Samuel Topping 1869-1937, I have found a possible marriage for him to Ann Beetle, in 1890, I have been trying to fit William into the main Topping family, the Joseph Topping and Dorothy Williams tree, but as yet I can't find the link between them, anyway here are William S Topping and Ann (maybe) Beetle's children, Samuel 1893-1942, Joseph 1896, John 1898, William 1900 and Elizabeth 1904, any help would be much appreciated.

[GregO]

I do not think that I can help you; as I am not up to the time period that you are looking at. I am still putting together the children and grandchildren of Joseph TOPPING and Dorothy WILLIAMS.

I will keep an eye out for your William Thomas TOPPING. Some of the other TOPPING researchers may have more info.

Do you know his parents and where he was born?